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Resumes have long been a standard tool when applying for a job or assessing potential candidates, but Caitlin McGregor, CEO of AI-powered talent assessment platform Plum, says there is a much better way to determine who will be successful in a particular role.

The future of recruitment relies on data and technology to gauge job candidates’ true potential, rather than a list of educational accomplishments and work experience, she says. Applicants complete a 25-minute assessment that delves into factors such as problem-solving ability and social intelligence, and matches them with what is needed in a particular job, McGregor added.

“We're able to look at people's innate talents like their ability to innovate, communicate, work well with others,” she said during the Perspectives podcast. “And that data has been proven by industrial organizational psychology to be four times more accurate at predicting on-the-job success long-term.”

In the latest episode of the Perspectives podcast, McGregor and James Spearing, Scotiabank’s Vice President of Global Talent Acquisition, discuss how the determinants of success on the job are not necessarily where and what a person studied, and how this is increasingly shaping hiring practices, including at the Bank.

Plum has partnered with Scotiabank for hiring candidates from universities and campuses across Canada, and the results in just two years have been positive, said Spearing.

Not only has it allowed the Bank to hire a more diverse pool of candidates, but early data also shows that the retention rates of those candidates has increased as well, he added.

“From a recruitment perspective, us using cutting-edge technology and innovation in our process signals to students that that's the type of organization we are… This isn't just something we say in recruitment about us being innovative or focused on the future. But it's basically how we do business.”


English Transcript:

Stephen Meurice: One of the most basic parts of the process of looking or applying for a job is writing a resume. You sum up your life's work, your experience, your education, your skills in a pithy page or two that will grab an employer's attention. With any luck, make you stand out from the dozens or hundreds of similar resumes that that person has to look at. But what if there was a better way of assessing skills or at least assessing potential than the resume?

That's one of the things I'll be talking to today's guests about. We'll also look at the state of hiring as we near the end of the second year of the pandemic, one that paradoxically now sees the economy facing labour shortages in many industries. This kind of environment becomes all the more crucial for companies to get the hiring right and to keep their top talent once they find it. And they need to do it in a way that reflects the diversity of the communities they work in and the changing expectations people have about the companies they work for.

I have a couple of great guests with me today to talk about the changing world of hiring and the workplace. Caitlin McGregor is co-founder and CEO of Plum, a talent assessment platform that, and I will quote from their website here, “Powers more objective talent decisions across the employee lifecycle using the predictive power of psychometric data.” Caitlin, thanks for joining us today.

Caitlin McGregor: Thank you for having me.

SM: I'm also joined by James Spearing, who is vice president of Global Talent Acquisition at Scotiabank. James started his career in auditing before joining Scotiabank. He held roles across financial operations, marketing, sales and HR. James, thanks for being here.

James Spearing: Thanks, Stephen. Great to be here.

SM: OK, James, the inspiration for this conversation came from a partnership that Scotiabank recently struck with Plum to change the way the Bank approaches campus recruitment, basically by getting rid of the requirement for resumes. Can you tell us a bit about that partnership, what you're hoping to accomplish with it and what problem you were trying to solve?

JS: Yeah, for sure. So firstly, I would say for me, coming into the Bank, this partnership was already started. So, I can't take credit for the genesis of it. But I have an incredible team who had partnered with Caitlin and Plum to start the conversation. But basically, for us, what we were looking at was before the pandemic, there was various impacts hitting the talent market and specifically when we looked at early talent. What we were seeing was the Bank’s needs for early talent were increasing, not just in terms of numbers of hires as we continue to grow, but also the diversity of those hires in terms of the entry points and where we were bringing people into the Bank.

We also reflected that historically we had recruited from certain universities or colleges or schools across the country. But was that really getting us the best talent for all of our roles? So, it was really, I guess, the case for change was we were evolving as an organization.

The entry points were evolving, candidate expectations were changing. And also, we knew that there was a variety of individuals across different programs at universities or colleges that may be good fits for us. But if we were only looking in the same groups each time, we weren't getting that broader view. So that's where it started. And then the other piece was, as part of our looking at inclusion overall, was were we putting barriers, or did we have bias in our recruitment and talent acquisition processes that we could address? So, lots of opportunity, and that's where the conversation started.

SM: I see. So essentially looking to broaden the pool of the types of people that you might attract, where they came from, what schools they went to, what I guess skills or at least potential they might have. Caitlin, can you explain what Plum does and how that is hoping to help solve the problems or the challenges that James just talked about?

CM: Yeah, so what Plum is is a 25-minute assessment that looks at problem-solving ability and personality in a way that really focuses on what drive people and gives them a sense of self-worth and what drains them and social intelligence in terms of, how do you solve people problems? What's the best thing to say in order to get the best outcome from people? And in that 25-minute assessment, we're able to look at people's innate talents like their ability to innovate, communicate, work well with others.

And that data has been proven by industrial organizational psychology to be four times more accurate at predicting on the job success long-term. So, a lot of the times when talent decisions are being made, employers are looking at historical data, where someone went to school, where they previously worked, how fast they progressed their career.

And that data is embedded with systemic barriers and biases that dictate access to education, dictate access to which extracurricular activities you can participate in even. And that data, it'll explain if somebody is eligible to do the job.

So, if you have 100 new graduates all lined up with the same background, could they do this task? But it won't tell you longitudinally if they will perform. So out of those hundred, which are the ones that are really going to thrive in the role? You need to look at those innate talents. You can teach hard skills, but you can't teach, really, the fundamentals of what drives and drains someone. So, we're providing this data. And the great thing is because it's 25 minutes and the candidate gets their own report, so they have a very positive experience because they now have self-awareness in terms of what their strengths are and how to leverage them, you can cast an incredibly wide net. It can be very inclusive that anybody that has 25 minutes can take this and then you're able to screen in people that you never would have even thought about in the first place. And you can also match them to jobs that they may not have even thought that they were a good fit for.

SM: Right, so a combination of eliminating some of the built-in biases that exist even within a resume. In other words, as you sort of describe what school you went to is it a high-profile school or less so. What kind of extracurricular activities you might be involved in, so on. So, it sort of screens out that and opens up opportunities to assess, I guess, potential. What people might be suited for in a way that would never be reflected in the resume anyway?

CM: This is about using science to quantify potential.

SM: And James, it’s kind of revolutionary, I would think, sort of in the world of hiring to say, we're going to we're going to toss aside the resume, which as I, as I mentioned, is sort of very basic to the whole job seeking process. How did that notion go over within the Bank and within people who are applying for jobs?

JS: Sure. So, lots of change management and communication would be the strategies that we applied. So, you're right, Stephen, it was a big change, I would say. Assessments have been used in talent acquisition for decades, various different types technical or on technical. We do use other types of assessments across the Bank. But when we were looking at early talent specifically in some of the elements that Caitlin just spoke to, there's reasons why students or early talent will have opportunities or not. So, what we had to do was work with Caitlin and her team to prove the science, to make sure we knew it could work. And then in terms of change management internally, what we did was work with senior business leaders to get their buy in first. There was a lot of hooks that we could latch on to that made the conversations fairly easy. And by that, I mean, as a bank, we've been looking at inclusion as a whole and how we remove any barriers to entry or progression in the Bank. So, we had those elements that were already in play.

And also, we knew that we were can continue to increase our campus intakes and get more sophisticated in our approach. So that fit well. So yes, the business leaders in some cases needed quite a bit of convincing in terms of how this was going to be used. But the thing that was really powerful in those conversations was Plum is not the only element of our recruitment process, it's a key element. It comes in early in our process, but it isn't the only thing that we make decisions on.

So that was helpful for the leaders to understand that from a student or an applicant perspective, this has gone down extremely well. Not just from those students that potentially are from those schools or the backgrounds that maybe thought they wouldn't be considered in the past, but also those that are at those historical top tier universities. Because what I would say, and I feel really passionately about this, is this does not mean that we are just hiring from other groups or looking for a diversity play. We're looking at an inclusion play basically by leveling the playing field for who we are actually meeting in a process.

We do receive thousands of applicants, especially at the campus level. Typically − and this isn’t a Scotiabank data point, an external one − recruiters will spend about seven seconds on a resume. So, if you think about what are they looking for, what bias are they inherently potentially looking at or historically looked at? This provides us, as Caitlin said, scientific background to help in that decision. And so, I think that messaging to students was really important to say, if you're a good student or you're a great student at one of these historical top-tier universities, you will still get through the process because you will be able to do really well on Plum. But what I what I think it's done for those students is it's also opened up opportunities where we are looking at applicants not just for one role. We're looking at where they might have the best home, a best fit in the organization. Because students don't go to school for commercial banking, they don't go to school for some of the titles that we have internally. We need to help them navigate our complex organization and help the organization get the right talents in the right places for the early part of their career.

SM: OK, I want to come back to some of the issues around bias or inherent bias in hiring and efforts to make workforces more diverse. But Caitlin, could you maybe talk first a little bit about, I mean, this is an AI-based platform as I understand it, or maybe simplifying or getting that wrong, but there is AI involved. Maybe you don't want to give away the proprietary secrets of Plum, but can you explain a little bit how what the technology involves and how it helps solve these problems?

CM: Yeah, it's an expert automated system. So basically, the system has automated best practices from industrial organizational psychology. All the validation studies and all of the algorithms come from what an industrial organizational psychologist would do manually. And we really just use the technology to automate that, speed that up and take it to a scale that just would be impossible for a human to do.

But we're staying away from kind of the black box. The computer decides the matches. It's very, very specific in terms of being job relevant. The thing that really allows Plum to be able to match every single candidate or employee to every single job within an organization and really create that scale of matching people to various different jobs, is our ability to quantify what are the actual job requirements for somebody to perform and excel at a high degree over time in that role? And it comes down to what are the behavioral needs of that job? Again, it's not the hard skills that you can learn on the job.

It's about do you need somebody that's innovative in this role? Do you need somebody that works well with teams in this role? Do you need somebody who resolves conflicts very easily? Are we setting people up for success?

So, we really need to quantify those behaviors of the job. And we created an eight-minute survey. It's almost like a 360 on the job. You get internal job experts that are setting the goals and priorities for the role moving forward in eight minutes to really prioritize and narrow down what are the behaviours that are most important and which ones are at least important. It's what gives us that criteria to match everybody against, and that's what allows it to scale. So, the technology is really this matching algorithm about looking at the top strengths that somebody has and looking at the top behaviours that are needed for a role and then saying how likely in the population is it to find that person? And we talk all the time about real-life examples of underwriters becoming product managers and not all underwriters becoming all product managers. But certain people that just had the right behaviours that they were transferable.

And when they took four months to kind of fill in the gaps on the hard skills and past experience, they excel beyond people that had 17 years of prior product management experience. And so, the key is really leaning into that potential, the individual and understanding what the role needs and putting them together.

SM: All right. So, sort of like James going from auditing to talent acquisition at some point in his career.

CM: Exactly. We need more James’s. I mean, wouldn't businesses thrive if you were able to take that different, diverse perspective from one part of the business and bring it into the other? We often do this at senior levels. We're like, oh, well, we now trust them. So now that we know that we want to hold on to them in their great, let's give them this really big reassignment and cross-pollinate the perspective.

But imagine being able to do that everywhere. And in the case of Scotiabank, they're able do that from day one with the best, emerging talent across all the areas that they that they hire, they're able to identify those people with potential and place them in the right roles from day one.

SM: I just want to ask you a little bit about the technology, one more question about the technology, just because anytime people talk about AI, and maybe particularly in an HR environment, but others as well, having concerns because there have been some stories where AI and the algorithms that are used to solve the problems have turned out to be biased inherently themselves because they're created by human beings. I'm sure you get asked that question around your systems. How have you addressed that?

CM: Yeah, so the systems that are getting into hot water are ones that are really looking at that historical data, because it's easy to scrape. So, they scrape resumes, they scrape cover letters and they're looking for pattern recognition. AI at its fundamental level is pattern recognition. We have seen that I've heard of another technology that said they've noticed that there are trends that people that were teachers make good product managers. And it's not because of things like innovation or execution, it's just that they saw teachers make good product managers. And the problem is, is that that's just pattern recognition. That’s saying people from this school or from this postal code or from people that play this sport.

And that pattern recognition is where you get into hot water because it's not actually job relevant. It doesn't predict if somebody will be successful in the job and it's really a shortcut. And it's really just speeding up that human bias because we do the same thing when we look at a resume, we do the same thing when we're in that interview room. We're like, oh, you took five years to finish university? You must not be very smart. You must be lazy. Instead of not recognizing that they had three part time jobs. In addition, year two, they actually found their passion and switched into something that they're much better at. And at the same time, we're looking after an elderly parent. Like, we don't know the context, but we make these quick assumptions. And unfortunately, a lot of the AI that looks at the pattern recognition doesn't have that extra context, either. They just speed up that bias.

With Plum, because the first kind of principle of what we do is looking at what is job relevant, what are the best practices from this entire field? I mean, there are 6,000 PhDs in industrial organizational psychology that have spent decades figuring out what predicts long-term performance and demonstrating how to show that it's job relevant. We're taking all of those best practices, bringing them into 2021, 2022 with really great technology to provide a positive user experience, and we're automating that proven field. It's not voodoo, it's not a black box, it's not pattern recognition.

It's truly about what scientifically predicts long term performance. And it all comes back to quantifying what the industry is called soft skills. But everything with around the future of work talks about, we're really quantifying that human potential, those durable innate talents that can't be taught that are the predictors of that success. And all we're doing is putting technology around that proven science.

SM: Right. And James can talk a little bit about you said that Plum is only one part of how you're approaching your talent acquisition and the way it's evolved. How has it evolved? What? What is different now about the way these companies approach hiring, trying to find the best people trying to keep them? Obviously, technology is part of it. But what are what are the trends around how that hiring takes place?

JS: Yeah. So great question, Stephen. I think I say to my team a lot. My first job in HR was campus recruitment at a different organization. Things have changed a lot since then because this was before social media, before any of these sophisticated assessments. So, that's the longer-term view. But if I think of sort of the last three to five years and especially the last two years, what we what we've seen is we need to focus on every stage of the talent acquisition process with really laser focus. So, we would have always done this. But what I'm talking about is how we market the roles so, building that top of the funnel, the attraction to the organization of the roles. We spend a lot more time on our social media efforts, on our websites to provide candidates with a lot of information at Scotiabank. Also, from a campus perspective, we have very much moved to a relationship-based model. So, by that, what I mean is my team is extremely busy, pretty much throughout the whole year, building relationships on campus and again, not just the traditional campuses that we would have focused on, but trying to broaden that net.

So, lots of different events, which are either more us telling the story of Scotiabank or specific business lines, but also providing students with masterclasses or ways that they can build their skills. And that happens through my team or through business leaders because we understand, of course, the recruiters are imported, but we're not the ones that the individuals are going to be working with when they join the organization. The other piece I think is changing candidate expectations. I haven't done a campus interview since I joined Scotiabank, but when I meet the students, when they join, the sophistication of thought is extremely high and just very impressive.

So, what's what I've seen is we have to get to know the students well. They're asking different questions about the organization than I think ever before.    that employee value proposition is so critical. And if I relate it to, using an assessment or with Plum specifically is I talked earlier about how it's been well received by students, but from a recruitment perspective, us using cutting-edge technology and innovation in our process signals to students that that's the type of organization we are, right? So, it's basically saying to them, this isn't just something we say in recruitment about us being innovative or focused on the future. But it's basically how we do business and how we look at talents. I think the world will continue to evolve in terms of early talent expectations, so the next year will be very telling as well. And my job and the job of the leaders in my team is making sure we're as close to the front of the curve as possible, knowing that we can't go after every shiny object. So, we’re very deliberate about what we choose, who we choose to partner with and what changes we lock in our process internally or externally.

SM: Right. You talked a little bit about changing expectations on the part of, I guess, younger people coming into the workforce. This is me waving my fist and saying, kids these days. You run a business. In addition to helping other people hire, you run a business where presumably you're doing hiring yourself, Caitlin. But it would have been your observations about what do those different expectations look like among? I mean, I don't want to just call everybody a millennial or whatever, it's kind of a meaningless term. But among younger people coming into the workforce, they have different demands or expectations around the companies that they work for?

CM: What's funny is that every new generation entering the workforce gets this bias that is put on them that somehow, they're this way or that way. But when you look at the science behind it and you look at the personalities and you look at the behaviours, there isn't something based on age that makes them entirely unique. But that being said, I think that as a whole, employers have made a shift in the last 30 years recognizing that, 30 years ago, we could have maybe gotten away with treating people like a cog in a machine. Like, you should be grateful that you get a salary. That doesn't cut it these days. I really think that employers are having to recognize that they are employing human beings and people want to be treated like human beings, and that if we treat them like human beings and we support them and set them up for success, we actually get a better outcome from them and they will stay longer. And so, I think really the biggest thing is not the candidates, it’s the awakening of the employers to recognize that the old ways are not setting people up for success. I mean, we've kind of gone through that revolution from when the BlackBerry first came out and we called it the CrackBerry. We started to recognize, OK, maybe having our employees on 24-7 wasn't the healthiest thing. Like, it's almost like we, as employers are growing up and recognizing how to better support people. And this is the next step. But I think what’s really interesting, just with COVID and the lockdown, is consistently we're seeing that the youngest generation coming into the workforce are the ones suffering from remote work. They really benefit from being around people, learning from other people, absorbing from what they're observing from their peers. And that when we, put them into home offices isolated from everybody else, they're really missing out on the experience.

Whereas if you take somebody who has several small children and it's you remove the commute for them and you allow them to be more present in the home, that's actually really supporting them and helping them have a more fulfilling life. And so, recognizing that these are the things that we need to be thinking about as we're building a new work world, as to how do we really allow people that need that teamwork and that interaction? How do we still create space for that?

Because a lot of places are going well, you know what, it's easier, cheaper, maybe we can get away with not providing that. And I think we're just trying to find that equilibrium. And it's hard when the external environment keeps changing, too.

But I think it has less to do the candidate and more of how do we do a better job of supporting people so that they're set up to thrive.

SM: Right. And that's about sort of the longer term. So as much about retention as it is about acquisition. James, I guess, your role is sort of at the front end, more on the acquisition part. But I'm sure you have thoughts about what Caitlin said, about the importance of what happens after you've signed them on.

JS: Absolutely. And it's interesting. COVID has really changed the view on that. So, I would say from a talent acquisition perspective, yes, I'm accountable at my team's more accountable to the attraction of talent and getting great talent into the organization. However, we are getting pulled into discussions across the talent lifecycle more and more. It doesn't mean we're owning those pieces, but we're informing them, because basically we look at, when someone comes into the organization, where will they move around?

What are the opportunities and whether that's early talent or experienced talent, people will come to organizations for different reasons and generally for big organizations, if we can provide, jungle gym career or multiple facets to a career, that's great. And we look at, we're very focused on holding on to our great talent as well. So, I think especially as we head into 2022, many articles about the great resignation or the great reshuffle. Well, we'll see what that looks like.

But as an organization, we're trying to prepare ourselves for that and that is understanding what is important to our people from a career trajectory perspective, but also many of the other points that Caitlin was mentioning., looking after that whole human, the lines of work in life are blurred. I think COVID has accelerated that, but it's not going to go away regardless of what our future of work looks like in terms of hybrid or remote or fully in-person.

And the other piece is around purpose., I think a lot when I see, different studies will say younger talent is very I'm looking for organizations with purpose. But then I think that's really important for me as well. So, we're all individuals and I want to work for an organization that I believe in the purpose, but also the purpose of my role and the impact I can make.

I think that's a societal change that we're seeing, which relates to the early talent, but also everyone. And that's when sort of those, Gen-X, Gen-Y, millennial pieces sort of or tags get thrown out the window because that's also part of being a good recruiter and a great talent acquisition professional or looking at development or retention is what does that look like over time for someone? And it's not a static thought or situation where we're evolving all the time through experience.

SM: And at the recruitment stage that your work with Plum currently only involves campus recruitment, as I understand it. And so that whole process of applying for a job without a resume. Do you see that expanding into other areas of the Bank?

JS: Yeah. So, we've partnered with Plum to do campus roles across the bank nationally. So, all of our entry points, which are quite diverse, as I said earlier, and continue to get more diverse. We've also used Plum in Scotia Digital for various roles. It's used at a different stage in the process, and we haven't used it as pervasively. But we are looking to expand the usage of Plum over time because one of the things that's been a huge benefit of using it in campus is, we are touching on hiring managers and leaders that aren't just recruiting for early talent. These are individuals that are recruiting for experienced talent. So, they are asking us about either about different assessments, but also just more around on traditional profiles, which for me as a talent acquisition professional is such a great win because we're changing their mindset, which is so critical.

I think areas, we are seeing various business lines interested in progressing the conversation, but in terms of no resume, this will be an interesting one for us to work on over 2022. Because my thinking is, we can definitely expand it for areas that are not necessarily our campus entry points, but ones where we might currently have job descriptions that talk about educational requirements or experiential requirements. We're looking to get rid of those in many cases. Is it a real requirement? Why is it a requirement? So, whether that's roles in our operations teams or various other areas of the bank in retail as well, you know?

Well, we won't run before we walk on those, but we definitely have a willing audience of leaders and hiring managers and also a team and, partners like Plum that are wanting to advance this. And so, we think we've got a good thing going. We are seeing it works, longer term benefits in terms of retention over a longer time will, the proof will be in the pudding in a few years because this is only the second year that we're using this approach.

But I'm excited for the future. And I think if we're not pushing the boundaries and being bold, I don't think we're doing the bank or the candidates a service, right? We need we need to think differently. And if it doesn't work as successfully will adjust and we'll try different approaches. But that's part of having a learning culture as well.

SM: OK, last word to you, Caitlin. What's the big challenge for the companies trying to hire the best talent and make an almost full employment situation that's going on right now, labour shortages, et cetera? What's the landscape look like in 2022?

CM: I think it's about casting as wide of net as possible., this really allows you to reduce those barriers to entry, really thinking about, well, if I had somebody that was an absolute rock star, but I had to put in three months to train them to get up to speed with somebody else, am I willing to do that? And so, most of the time, especially in this market, this is the time to think outside the box is the time to cast as wide of a net as possible. Put a big welcome mat out and accept people in that you may not have originally been targeting or thinking about. And then the second piece is that once you see this data, once you see what makes somebody thrive and what drives them and understands what drains them and how to support them, you can't unsee this data.

So, this data helps you onboard them. This helps you have career development discussions; this allows you to have internal mobility discussions long term. So really, looking at this as a holistic change, and I love partnering with Scotia because they're thinking about all of those things, and we've made some very bold steps together, and I think it's just the beginning.

SM: So, James, what kind of results have you seen from this so far?

JS: Yes, Stephen, so great, great results to date, in our two years of using Plum on campus. So, we knew going in that we wanted to see some diversity metrics in terms of, and by this, what we've seen is an increase in the number of schools in universities that we are recruiting from actively. So that's over 30 across the country and will continue to grow as we get more sophisticated. The other elements are about diversity of program. So basically, yes, traditionally, we might have been seen as recruiting for B. Comms or business programs for most of our roles, but that is not the case anymore. We are seeing more and more STEM or STEAM, including the arts degrees in there. But again, that gets to the diversity of roles that we have across the organization and the skills also that the leaders are looking for in these roles. So, we're very proud of those results. But from a demographic perspective, what we found since we've been using Plum is over 60% of our campus hires are visible minorities or people of colour. So that is a critical element of our strategy as a Bank in terms of increasing our representation and in terms of labour market availability, and campus hires are a very diverse group. And then also what we're seeing is, it's early days, so this will be something we'll look at over time, but retention. So, our retention figures have increased. They're doubled since using Plum, and that is basically keeping students in programs or in role. And we expect that will continue because our variety of programs we have across our business lines are focused on getting great talent in, but really are incubating the future leaders of tomorrow, which is actually the name of our programs. It's talent incubators of leaders for leaders of tomorrow. So, we want them to have a great experience, but stick around for a career with the Bank if this is the place where they see themselves growing.

SM: Great. Well, that was super interesting. Thank you both for being here, I really appreciate it was a was really interesting conversation.

CM: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

JS: Yeah, same, thank you. Thank you both for your time. Great conversation.

CM: James, you're amazing. I wish I could do this like every month with you. This gives me so much energy. I'm like, this is the purpose of why I built Plum, and I'm so glad that we're getting to realize that purpose by working with you. So, thank you.

JS: Thanks. I'm passionate about early talent, but also just shifting hearts and minds as it relates to talent acquisition, but also talent retention.

CM: Well, you're doing it, it's amazing to hear the positive response that you're getting from everyone. So, thank you.

SM: I've been speaking with Caitlin McGregor, CEO of Plum, and James Spearing, vice president of Global Talent Acquisition at Scotiabank. Thanks for listening to Perspectives. Enjoy the show. Please subscribe and rate us wherever you listen to your podcast. See you next time.